Punk Ass Jim wrote:

"Isn't this exactly what they did?"

Well, not exactly. What they said was, we're neutral on third party development, we're not going to actively stop users from moding their phones...etc. Then they go and clamp it down so that the phone gets bricked (Or unable to activate). So Apple is being a tease and the people who will suffer are the poor saps who bought into the promise of an unlocked phone or the ability to roll your own ringtones.

Now PunkAss, I can hear and others going all Ayn Rand on me and saying, "well you takes your chances and..." and you'd be right, on paper. But Apple wants a happy longtime customer. Bricking people's phones and then smugly turning them away clothed in their righteousness will only alienate people and keep them from purchasing the product again. Or other Apple products, because they will not trust Apple and they will not feel that Apple cares about them. It happened to Quark, it happened to Microsoft, and Apple is crazy if they think somehow they are immune because Sir Jonathan is too sexy for his shirt. How hard would it be to release a patch that would completely re-write the firmware to restore it to factory fresh and allow it to be reactivated?

In marriage there is a saying: Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Apple is clearly in the right here, but they need to gently punish their students, not expel them. As a short term thing, it might scare people away from unauthorized modding, but it will ultimately hurt Apple in the long term, because our favorite fruit will have to eventually open up the phone to third party development (in some form or another) once the competition has caught up (and it will) and do they really want to alienate customers? It might be victory for technology, but it could turn out to be a branding nightnmare.

This is one of those things where the only winners here will be the lawyers.

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"This has nothing to do with the EULA. It has to do with willfully violating the written terms of a cell phone WARRANTY and then expecting a company to honor this warranty after you not only violate it, but install an update - one which the company explicitly warned you might cause serious problems. I would not expect any business to behave any differently with any other product."

This is something that has also been court tested. Actions on the user's end to not automatically void the warranty unless the manufacturer can explicitly PROVE that the actions of the user are what caused the defect or damage. It could easily be argued that it was Apple's actions that caused the brick, not the user's. It appears that there may have been a little bit of intention on Apple's part. If it were to go to court, Apple would have to prove it didn't have intent, and that the damage was done by the user. That's a high order to PROVE that, even if it is true.

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I'm sorry you got stung Joel. The good news is the iPhone Dev Team will likely have a solution for you very soon.

And in case anyone thinks otherwise, I think the work of the Dev-Team has been amazing and I fully support people's right to tinker with the devices they own. I am just not willing to personally enter the fray yet. I need to be able to rely on my phone and if you start going into uncharted territories you have to be able to take it as it comes.

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"This is something that has also been court tested. Actions on the user's end to not automatically void the warranty unless the manufacturer can explicitly PROVE that the actions of the user are what caused the defect or damage. It could easily be argued that it was Apple's actions that caused the brick, not the user's. It appears that there may have been a little bit of intention on Apple's part. If it were to go to court, Apple would have to prove it didn't have intent, and that the damage was done by the user. That's a high order to PROVE that, even if it is true."

Apparently, the lawyers interviewed over at Gizmodo disagree with you:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/pr-bluff/apples-iphone-bricking-is-legal-and-technical-bs-303459.php

choice quotes:

"Apple is under no obligation to support any third party 'updates' to their phone. Once the device has been taken out of the realm of original specifications (including the original Apple-developed firmware/software), Apple is under no obligation to provide any support to the product.

I've also been hearing claims of 'Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act' violations regarding the iPhone on the part of Apple. From Wikipedia: 'The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (P.L. 93-637) is a United States federal law (15 U.S.C. § 2301 et seq.). Enacted in 1975, it is the federal statute that governs warranties on consumer products.' Apple can by-pass these violations because they apply only to products that fail to conform to the original written warranty. As described above, the original written warranty will only apply to unmodified iPhones. Once the radio firmware on the iPhone is altered, it is operating outside of Apple's intended use and outside of the realm of the original warranty."

"Apple can update the phone as it sees fit as long as the updates do not breach the original terms of the warranty. Proving Apple's intent isn't realistically possible. In theory, Apple and AT&T seek to protect their revenue stream and there is plenty of intent to brick non AT&T iPhones, however, proving such malicious intent is exceptionally difficult. Given that the product is being used outside of its normal design specifications—used on AT&T network— all damage caused to the iPhone by Apple updates will arguably be the end user's fault."

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legalities aside, if we just sit aside and allow manufacturers to remove our choices, just because they CAN, then we will end up with a lot more closed systems and a lot less choices

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"legalities aside, if we just sit aside and allow manufacturers to remove our choices, just because they CAN, then we will end up with a lot more closed systems and a lot less choices"

Agreed. So let's start applying pressure where it needs to be applied, at the lawmaking level. This behavior on the part of Apple should come as no suprise to anyone. Companies will always do whatever makes the most fiscal sense for them to do... within the confines of the law. That's just the way business's are. Change the law however, and Apple, AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile won't be able to lock ANY of their phones which also means the contract system might come tumbling down as well (hallelujah!).

My comment aren't really about anything you have said. Rather they are aimed at the people posting indignant tirades about how this is all so "illegal" (because it isn't illegal at all). That outrage would be better spent pushing for some new pro-consumer cell phone regulations, especially since the carriers are using public airwaves they should be held accountable to some standard of public good.

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@minimalist

I would think the easier and better changes would be to show the companies what we want and hope they choose to make the right decisions on their own, and if that doesn't work then go the legal route, but I think if they do it because they realize it is best for their consumers and, in turn, their profit margin, then we will get a better result in terms of the product. But that may be a lofty goal, and out of reach

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“I would think the easier and better changes would be to show the companies what we want and hope they choose to make the right decisions on their own, and if that doesn't work then go the legal route, but I think if they do it because they realize it is best for their consumers and, in turn, their profit margin, then we will get a better result in terms of the product. But that may be a lofty goal, and out of reach”

This of course assumes that the people with unlocked iPhones constitutes a critical mass.. which I am not convinced they really do). It is very easy to assume that 100 angry people on a handful of tech sites represents some huge movement. We simply don’t know the real numbers.

But I’d be willing to bet that Apple has a pretty good idea of the real numbers. And I don’t think any move they have made thusfar has not the result of carefully calculated cost/benefits analyses of the situation.

Besides, this isn’t purely Apple’s decision. Apple does has a contract with AT&T.

In most other cases I would say let the free market sort it out, but the cellular industry uses limited public resources to run their business so they are not really operating in the completely free market. Therefore their needs to be some regulation when it comes to consumer rights.

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I found this on the AT&T wireless website regarding unlocking phones.

QUESTION:
What is the unlock code for my phone?
How do I unlock my phone?
What is the subsidy unlock code for my phone?
What is the subsidy password for my phone?

ANSWER:
Note: If your phone is an iPhone, the following information does not apply. Please see the topic: What is the unlock code for my iPhone?

To control theft of devices and to protect customer security, AT&T only releases unlock codes to customers under certain instances. The unlock code is unique for each device as determined by the manufacturer. If you would like your phone to be unlocked, please contact AT&T at 1-800-331-0500.


If you are viewing information on devices or services, please note: content reflects instructions for devices and services purchased from AT&T.
Some differences may exist for devices not purchased from AT&T.


Now this is what they say about the iphone

QUESTION:
What is the unlock code for my iPhone?
How do I unlock my iPhone?
What is the subsidy unlock code for my iPhone?
What is the subsidy password for my iPhone?

ANSWER:
iPhone cannot be unlocked, even if you are out of contract. If you are traveling internationally, iPhone is a quad-band phone and will work in many countries across the globe. Stay connected while traveling to over 190 countries, plus get discounted rates in over 80 of those countries when you sign up for AT&T World Traveler

Now is it me or does this seem fishy? Maybe its because 90 days hasn't elapsed or are they seriously going to take the stance that the phone cannot be unlocked from their network.

I understand that I am tied to them for 2 years but after I serve my time am I to understand that I will effectively have to throw away my device because it "cannot be unlocked".

Also what if I hate their service and gladly pay the fee to cancel my contract shouldn't I be entitled to have my device unlocked or are they really going to say tough luck use it as an ipod touch.

There has to be a law against this if there isn't there should be.

Once I fufill my end of the agreement whether that's seeing it through to the end or paying the fee to cancel shouldn't the device be mine to use as I see fit at that point?

I am going to look into this further because I would like to know if this 90 day thing is real. If it is and anyone else has more info please share it.

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"It is very easy to assume that 100 angry people on a handful of tech sites represents some huge movement."

Given the information available I'd guess that the number is actually closer to 100 times that, at least. You can choose to believe that or not, given the amount of people buying these phones by the half dozed and selling them in europe and canada and making good money off of them says that the market for unlocked iPhones is not a small one. Also given the obvious number of uneducated, in terms of device modding, people unlocking them and then making bad assumptions and arguments on sites like TUAW and Techdirt, the number seems to be pretty close to the dev team's estimates of 10-20% of all owners. It's not that hard to imagine given the press the unlocking process has gotten, and the hype surrounding the phone itself

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“Given the information available I'd guess that the number is actually closer to 100 times that, at least. You can choose to believe that or not, given the amount of people buying these phones by the half dozed and selling them in europe and canada and making good money off of them says that the market for unlocked iPhones is not a small one.”

Well, I’m not sure Apple cares (nor should they care) about keeping in good graces with grey-market resellers. The number may very well be closer to 10,000. If that is the case then Apple is really, really stupid. Something tells me however that with 10’s of millions of dollars and a lot of bad PR on the line, Apple might have researched this before they made the decisions they have made.

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The unlock law allows YOU to unlock a device after 90 days for "purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network."

This is NOT a requirement for anyone to do it for you.

It could be argued, however, that software breaking a device which was legally unlocked would be malicious in intent...however there was a warning posted which could legally mitigate the issue.

Given that the release date was June 29th, the updated software was released EXACTLY 90 days later. If you bought your phone on release day, you might stand a chance...if not, sorry. You unlocked before the 90 day period.

If Apple has a way to see when the phone was unlocked exactly, there are still days before this "magical" clock runs out ... before you actually have rights.

Technically, today is the first day where you can legally unlock your phone.

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"The number may very well be closer to 10,000. If that is the case then Apple is really, really stupid. Something tells me however that with 10’s of millions of dollars and a lot of bad PR on the line, Apple might have researched this before they made the decisions they have made."

I was guessing more in the 100,000 range.
I don't think Apple should care about staying in good graces with grey-market resellers either. I do think they should consider the amount of interest in an unlocked device, and plan according to that. Whatever contractual obligations they have with AT&T in terms of locking it down for 5 years was a bad decision on Apple's part. They are losing money in the long run, and hopefully they will see that. I don't expect them to supply me with support or special updates for my unlocked phone, but I also shouldn't expect them to be out to stop me simply because AT&T is mad that they are losing money.

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Mine iBricked after update. Lost all files (music, ringtones, pics, configs et all)

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“I don't expect them to supply me with support or special updates for my unlocked phone, but I also shouldn't expect them to be out to stop me simply because AT&T is mad that they are losing money.”

Wait a minute… If you don’t expect support or special updates why on earth would you install an update which you had been warned would lock up the phone exactly as it did? If you don’t expect updates to be tailored to your hacked phone how can you get mad when you install the update, by choice, and it goes bad?

Until it can be definitely proven that Apple went out of their way to cause damage to unlocked phones, the part about Apple being “out to stop” you is just speculation.

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sigh
I keep hitting the wrong verification links :(

Sorry for the duped comment YET AGAIN :(

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that goPhone trick does not work!
and dont even bother going to the apple store or at&t
their just going to tell you they cant do anything and write down your
your sn and imei # report it into their system so they know that your phone has voided warrenty

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Does this mean that soon there will be a glut of refurb iPhones available?

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I just had mine replaced under warranty ,after invalid Sim error...
Apple rocks!!!!!!!!

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People seem to forget. Apple has specified VERY CLEARLY FOR ABOUT 9 MONTHS NOW that this is an EXCLUSIVE DEAL WITH AT&T. They've already publicly defended it, it's in all of their contracts. Contracts you agreed to when you purchased and activated your iPhones. Apple isn't stopping people from unlocking their iPhones, they're stopping them from receiving newer updates. If you desperately need that Etch-a-sketch simulator, you're gonna have to give up the sought-after iTunes Wi-Fi store. The moral of the story is, APPLE KNOWS BEST, if you are just patient, things will come to you. Apple is sensitive to the requests of their clients, but they're also sensitive to the integrity of their company and especially of their products. If you hack OS X, it's not covered at the Genius Bar, just like the iPhones. If you change out the transmission in your car for some "high-performance" transmission, the car company wont get you a new one if that part or any connected part fails. This is STANDARD BUSINESS PRACTICE, if you mess up our product, we're not gonna get you a new one. I don't know why people feel like Hacking a perfectly good operating system for a handful of crappy pointless applications is a God-given right that should be embraced by the company that makes the product. It's cool if you know what you're doing, but Apple just proved that anybody who's done this DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. Leave the phone alone, let Apple do all the magic. Maybe one year, the iPhone will be on all of the networks, have 3G (or better), support 3rd party development and other cooler features, but things take time. Just remember, it's only been out for 3 months!

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