Filed under: Hardware, Portables, Switchers
Scot Finnie on Mac vs. PC pricing
Here at TUAW, we welcome all those yearning to breathe free of Windows, especially high-profile technology columnists like ComputerWorld's Scot Finnie. Longtime PC writer Finnie made a public switch to the Mac in February after a 3-month trial, and he's not looking back. This week, in an article posted on his site and adapted in ComputerWorld, he takes on the accepted wisdom that Macs are more expensive than PCs. Guess what he discovered? Feature for feature, if you match up Apple's constrained model selections with mainstream/premium vendors like Dell or Sony, the MacBook Pro and iMac come out ahead on pricing. In fact, getting a Dell laptop to match the 17" MBP config resulted in a laptop $650 more expensive and almost two pounds heavier. Finnie's original analysis came out before this week's revisions to the MBPs, so it's worth checking for yourself to see that it's hard to get laptops with the latest Intel chips anywhere near Apple's price/spec lineup.
In light of Apple's record results over the past couple of quarters, it's worth reading Finnie's March 28 Computerworld essay, "Why Microsoft Should Fear Apple." Marketing mojo and technical sophistication aside, Finnie zeroes in on the real competitive advantage Apple is gaining: public buzz. (We're doing what we can to help. :-)
[via Ars Technica]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Twist said 5:34PM on 6-09-2007
My sister got a Dell laptop a few months ago and after adding everything she wanted to it it was like $200 more for 200 MHz less and she didn't add anything to it that isn't standard on the MacBook. All the MacBook required was a RAM upgrade to match the specs of the Dell.
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Christi said 6:45PM on 6-09-2007
Apple vs. PC pricing always annoy me when people counter with, "Sure Macs are competitive in price now but Dells go on sale and rebates always pop up," or "But you don't need everything that Macs come with and you can get a barebones system for only a few hundred dollars." Annoys me because those aren't the markets Apple is trying to compete in -- coupon clippers are not Apple's target demographic. Apple's offerings should instead be compared to Sony or other boutique hardware vendors.
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Thayne Miller said 8:20PM on 6-09-2007
I'm tired of these comparisons and I'll tell you why:
Windows - anywhere from $120-$400 (conservatively). Then, add on software, anti-virus, spyware, crashes, bugs, ugly external case designs (especially laptops), etc.
Mac OS = Automator, Dashboard, Garage Band, iDVD, iMovie, iPhoto, iSync, iWeb, iWork ($80-worth every penny when you see your colleague's faces after 5 ugly powerpoint presentations before you), Apple support both phone and in-store, oh and don't forget boot camp, and all the other billion reasons you'd use a mac over a pc = PRICELESS.
I don't care if I could get a 3Ghz laptop with 400GB harddrive and 40GB of ram all for $30. If it can't run OS X, I DON'T WANT IT. My life is too short to waste my time using crummy software. That makes these comparisons useless to me. Think of it this way: I don't use the hardware, the software does. I use the software.
I find it funny how people insist on comparing internal components without taking into account that PRICE and VALUE are completely different things. I don't care if the mac PRICE is $10k, it has such high VALUE that no monetary difference would even matter. It's like asking me if for the same price would I rather have a punch in the face or 2 week trip to the Bahamas. Of course, most PC users won't understand this until they get past their fear of trying something new. And, as I'm sure we'll see in the comments below, some people are content with labeling me as a closed-minded mac fanboy (unfortunately for them, neglecting that few of them out there have had as much experience with windows and linux as I have had in my life). Steve Jobs surely agrees with me as he told Mossberg at D5 that Windows users like iTunes because "it's like giving a glass of ice-water to someone in hell." So do I think people who buy PC's are morons? Nope, I just think they are mis-informed.
Am I biased? Yep. Why shouldn't I be? American cars suck, Bush (and company) is a tool, and Macs are better than PC's. Isn't this all just common sense by now?
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Phil said 8:38PM on 6-09-2007
My favorite comment that always seems to come up in these comparisons is the "I can build my own PC for X dollars". Sure, you can and congratulations...but just like the folks that want to build their own DVR, it isn't the same as a Tivo.
Great YOU built it and saved a few hundred bucks (to buy some first person shooters with I'm sure). But now you have to USE it.
Another interesting thing, usually the person that makes "PCs are cheaper" claims will also be the one that in other facets of their life will choose the more expensive item because it is "better".
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DerekJ said 5:58PM on 6-10-2007
I sell PC's for a living, and it's staggering how many people are just unwilling to switch "just cause I'm-a-used-to XP" It's really pathetic, honestly. It's like showing a person an automatic transmission hybrid, and them saying, "Welp, Sonny, you know I think I'll just stick to my 12mpg stick-shift."
I find the same things on pricing out when I compare mac to anyone at all. The computers least worth their price are VAIO's. They're great build quality, sure, but they're still just as expensive to keep up with security and all that money-wasting b.s. It's like buying a Hummer...Yeah it's expensive. An expensive piece of crap.
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sageimac said 9:10PM on 6-09-2007
"My life is too short to waste my time using crummy software." - Thayne Miller
That says it all.
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Phyer said 10:06PM on 6-09-2007
I'm a long-time Windows user and have been playing with OSX for the past few weeks. I'm also one of those "build it yourself" users who likes being able to save those few hundred dollars by not paying someone to assemble and support my computer. In the past few weeks I've learned to LOVE Mac OSX - the software is amazing and agreeably much more refined and well-though out than Windows - but the dealbreaker for me is still that I'm locked into Apple's hardware configuration and can't fix it myself (that and the fact that I doesn't play my games). As it stands with my PC right now, I can spend $230 (in this specific case a future CPU port that supports socket AM2, 2GB of ram and a new processor) and take my two year old motherboard and make it damn near close to cutting edge again. ~$200 upgrades every few years are much easier to stomach and get the wife to approve than buying a new $1500 iMac every 3 years (which I'm told is the average life of an Apple machine). If Apple would release OSX even in an unsupported fashion that would let people like me run it on non Apple hardware I would definitely buy it and dual-boot, but they refuse to.
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Sam said 11:08PM on 6-09-2007
"How much is the very best trackpad in the business worth to you? To me, it's worth a lot. But I know that some people couldn't care less."
For me, this is one of the quintessential reasons I use a Mac laptop. Sure, using the touchpad is a bit of a chore - compared to using my bluetooth Mighty Mouse (yes, it's expensive but it works on every surface I've tried and doesn't require any sort of dongle) - however PC laptop touchpads are generally tiny. Honestly, I could just about fit two first class stamps on most I've seen - whereas Apple touchpads are BIG, offer a huge target for clicking and do things like two-finger scrolling that you just don't generally see on PC laptops.
The "it just works" philosophy is usually extended to the Windows side of things as well. I have a flatmate with an Acer laptop which refuses to maintain a wireless connection for more than 30 minutes unless all the Acer software is disabled. The graphics chip in my MacBook, while being of the embedded variety, has full support for Vista's Aero (I'm running Business myself, without a hitch), and was most likely chosen by Apple for the purpose of supporting these sorts of visual effects.
Also, Macs are an solid resale investment - December before last I bought a Summer 2001 iMac G3 600MHz for £150 (~US$300), I was lucky to get it for that price as most were going for around £175 - £210ish. I've got Tiger on it and it runs surprisingly well. Try selling a five year old PC, with a middle of the road spec as did the old iMacs, full stop.
I think laptops are a fairer basis for comparison - you can't upgrade an Apple laptop any more than you can a PC laptop, and very few people would have the skills needed to build one. For what's important to me, Apple wins out every time - my MacBook is a reasonably small, reasonably light laptop that I can carry around uni all day *and* expect the battery to last, while not making compromises on processor speed and the optical drive, the single FireWire port powers my portable drive (a feat not managed by any single USB port I've ever seen, nor desktop or powered hub for that matter), the ease of use of Mac OS X AND the option of running Vista any way I like it.
I felt completely at home in Mac OS X within only a few months of getting a Mac. I actually feel at home on Vista too (why is left as an exercise to anyone reading this ;-)), something Windows hasn't done for me since 3.11 - and I love being able to run it on my Mac. Proving to disbelieving, Mac-hater friends, with of course a smug grin plastered across your face, that Macs can run Microsoft's latest and greatest, feels REALLY good! Office 2007 is also probably the best Office yet - and I simply cannot wait for Office:mac 2008.
Oh and Linux runs fine on my MacBook as well - including the rather nifty Beryl compositing window manager (except oddly enough the blur, which runs dog slow despite Vista pulling it off perfectly) - but I left my Linux days behind when I switched to Mac!
Sam
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Sam said 11:09PM on 6-09-2007
Hmm, that turned out an awful lot longer that I intended - Sorry!
Sam
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Liquidmark said 11:33PM on 6-09-2007
"than buying a new $1500 iMac every 3 years (which I'm told is the average life of an Apple machine)."-Phyer
Was the person that told you that a Mac user???
Try over SIX years lifespan for Apple computers on average.
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Ken said 2:04AM on 6-10-2007
Not to mention the ridiculous resale value of Macs. You say spend $200 every couple of years... uh.. I sold my year and a half old iMac the other day, and got 90% of what I paid for it... you aren't ponying up for a full new machine.
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Ahmad said 12:03AM on 6-10-2007
hold on, let me bookmark this article for future "I told you so's"
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Thayne Miller said 12:20AM on 6-10-2007
yeah, WELL over 3 years! Give me a break! Not only that, but consider the resell value on ebay! So cut that price at least in half. I had a 12" powerbook for 2 years that I sold for only 30% less than what I paid my education discount for. That turned out to be only $50 shy of a brand new macbook. so basically I bought a powerbook, and 2 years later, got to upgrade to a macbook for only $50. Can you sell you CUSTOM built PC after 2 years? hahaha!
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Thayne Miller said 12:28AM on 6-10-2007
oh, p.s. anyone that wants to see some cool stuff you can do with a mac, or want to show someone a little sample of what iMovie can do, just check out my website, http://www.thayneq.com and click the "movies" tab at the top. If you don't like the filters I've used in the iMovie (I know they get annoying), just click the link on that page for a filter-free version (or a high res version which I like even better). It's a good example of just what all can be done on just a bottom line mac: a blog, website, resumes, photos, and a fantastic iMovie! Let me know what you think! (oh and I know you guys all probably hate automatically playing music on my website, but most non-geeks enjoy it and they are the ones reading my blog).
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JeffDM said 1:14AM on 6-10-2007
I think most hardware, other than the hard drives & optical drives, can average a higher than six year life. The real issue is whether it's worth a lot of monkey business to fix if it ever goes down. I just took a nine year old Xeon workstation out of daily service, but only because it's a little slow and I found an affordable replacement. If Windows gets chunked up on a five year old computer, it's usually not worth the time or money to reinstall Windows when the computer doesn't really have much remaining value and it's the same old hardware.
A hobbyist like me can afford to spend a little time to learn and maintain but most people don't have the time or patience to learn that, some of which shouldn't have been necessary in the first place.
Thayne, I think your 12" Powerbook example is a little unusual because that's still a highly desired model for its form factor. Many other PPC Mac models don't fare that well. A one year old 17" PowerBook didn't get much more than $1000, and those originally sold for nearly $3000. I think my top-end PowerMac G5 sold for just over half its original price in 18 months.
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Phyer said 1:54AM on 6-10-2007
"Was the person that told you that a Mac user???
Try over SIX years lifespan for Apple computers on average."
I'm not talking about lifespan in terms of the machine breaking, I'm talking about lifespan in terms of being useful and fast.
The computer industry advances in week time spans, not years - nothing lasts 6 years in this industry without showing it's age and needing a replacement. If after 6 years you're still using that flower power iMac you bought in 2001, then you're living in the past.
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Yuriy said 1:56AM on 6-10-2007
With Mac you paying a money but with PC you paying a TIME. The main question what is more expensive? It depend for every person. I have decided the time is more expensive for me and typing this message from PowerBook.
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Phyer said 2:03AM on 6-10-2007
"Can you sell you CUSTOM built PC after 2 years? hahaha!"
I wouldn't try and sell my PC for the same reason auto-hobbyists don't try and sell the tweaked hotrod they've got sitting in their garage. Apple or otherwise, theres a level of pride and ownership (not to mention understanding) in building something yourself that you'll never experience if you're just a "sell me a box" consumer.
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Duscrom said 6:19AM on 6-10-2007
Hah. Most of you are preaching to the chior. So I'm devil's advocate.
a) Dell's warranty is cheaper and much better then apple's.
I had a Dell Inspiron 8600 for 2 years before my friend traded me his Powerbook G4 for it. And, Dell, again and again surprised me at how responsive they could be for repairs. But most importantly, they repaired Accidental damage.. no questions asked. Like when a friend accidently knocked a bit of water onto my keyboard.. I had a new FREE replacement in 2 days. With my new MacBook, some apple juice accidently fell on the trackpad.. and the only reason i got it fixed was because of some other defect that wasn't my faulr. I mean, i take care of my stuff, but accidents happen. Even if I pay the $350 for applecare, it still won't help me when an accident occours.
2 Familiarity.
OSX is a lovely OS.. but it's by no means perfect. I've been using Windows for 10+ years. Something goes wrong, i know how to fix it. OSX, No clue. Why is my system dragging, despite me having 4 programs open on 2 GB of RAM? I have no idea. Why is my mouse cursor, sometimes not responding.. I have no idea. Why is it suddenly taking longer to boot. (Before even getting to the the Boot camp load screen.. it can take up to 15-20 seconds) I have no idea. Why does my battery take 4 hours to charge? The Geniouses won't listen to me long enough to figure it out. (The powerbook G4 would take 2 hours, tops to charge fully from almost dead.. this macbook with the Out of the box power supply, discharges faster then it recharges). And hell, as far as anti-viruses.. spyware remover and all that crap. I never used that kinda stuff.. I surfed smart.
People:
'cept for one friend of mine.. I find many Mac Users to be.. well. a bit stuck up. Unless you agree that Mac/iPod/OSX are the greatest products out there, you aren't worth their time.
Software prices!
Holy crap Quicken needs some compitition!!! $99 for .mac service? Espically when this thing voluenteered that as my email address so that i waisted $18. iChat AV, great program AWESOME features. Most useless! seeing as.. well since i have no up-to-date Mac friends.. noone has a .mac chat account.
But hell, despite my gripes, I paid $1099 for a brand new mac laptop after getting my hands on a Powerbook G4. As a laptop, there is noting better then Apple. I Do miss my Dell warranty and don't feel truly secure in my investment.. knowing that one trip, and i've got a $1100 paperweight, where dell would fix it for free.. (last time i was at the mac store, i watched as this one girl was buying a brand new laptop, because her old one got juice spilled on it while she was going to Florida.. while myself, in the middle of a nasty break-up, got upset and.. well, cause my lapto structural damage. $200 and a week later, it was good as new... and that was outside of the warranty window) Actually it was better then new.
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Thayne Miller said 8:04AM on 6-10-2007
Duscrom,
None of us mind a devil's advocate, but I have to point out that your experience is extremely rare. I have a $1099 macbook as well, and here has been my experience relative to yours:
as far as applecare goes, every mac comes with one year standard. While dell does have a nice warranty, I have never been let down with apple. To prevent accidens, one must think twice about drinking apple juice next to your computer. Same way you think twice about not smoking while pumping gas. I've had my macbook repaired several times, one for staining, and one for a battery replacement. Both times the repair took only a day and that turnaround was phenominal.
"OSX is a lovely OS.. but it's by no means perfect. I've been using Windows for 10+ years. Something goes wrong, i know how to fix it."
On a RELATIVE scale between worst software ever made and perfect, Windows is on one end and OS X is on the other. It's not perfect, but nothing is closer.
"Why is my system dragging, despite me having 4 programs open on 2 GB of RAM?" open activity monitor and see what's running. Sounds like you have installed some third party apps that are crashing. That's not OSX's fault, but your own. For someone with 10+ years windows experience this should be common sense. I have a macbook with 2GB memory and I can run much more than 4 apps without it slowing down! Unless those four apps are Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Aperture, and Parallels ;)
"Why is my mouse cursor, sometimes not responding.. " Never had this problem. Sounds to me again like you've mucked it up with some bad third party mouse drivers. Although I haven't had to do this save in the most dire circumstances, go ahead and reinstall tiger, it's very simple. That should fix any software hickups, and you won't have to touch your apps. Just pop the cd in and go. It's also possible you just need to reset the trackpad by just pressing your palm flat against it. All issues like this are easily fixed by reading apple's support documents or the discussions.
"Why is it suddenly taking longer to boot. (Before even getting to the the Boot camp load screen.. it can take up to 15-20 seconds) "
This is because you are rebooting right after a software update and the mac is changing stuff for the single time before you login. You might also have a cd in the drive which the mac will have to mount and read before it can choose which device to boot from. Again, this is all expected behavior. On a normal macbook, it doesn't take more than about 5-7 seconds (when holding option) for the boot camp screen to appear. If it's not, you just need to call applecare and tell them. They'll fix it.
"Why does my battery take 4 hours to charge? The Geniouses won't listen to me long enough to figure it out. (The powerbook G4 would take 2 hours, tops to charge fully from almost dead.. this macbook with the Out of the box power supply, discharges faster then it recharges)."
Charge time depends on many factors. You can read about it here http://www.apple.com/batteries/ . Your battery might be horribly conditioned or you've somehow killed it with misuse or mis-storage. Again, I'd call applecare because my macbook, even when in heavy usage, only takes at most 2 hours to fully charge. When not in use, it's considerably less. But again, batteries are exhaustable, like ink cartridges. A good indicator of your battery's life is to check the system profiler and look at the number of charge cycles. If this number is in the 3 or 4 hundreds, you've just run your battery to it's life. Also download the free coconut battery app for a great indicator as to how much life and capacity your battery has left relative to a factory model. My macbook still has 92% max capacity and I have 235 charge cycles. This is because I follow the user guide and calibrate/condition my battery monthly. If you're unsatisfied, call applecare and they'll tell you it's normal or fix it if it's not. Simple.
"And hell, as far as anti-viruses.. spyware remover and all that crap. I never used that kinda stuff.. I surfed smart." That's great and all, but as any security expert will attest to, it only takes being on the internet for your windows box to get hit. Don't need to be surfing. Surely running firefox helps a boatload, but there are so many more things wrong with windows than just it's virus and spyware problems.
"People:
'cept for one friend of mine.. I find many Mac Users to be.. well. a bit stuck up. Unless you agree that Mac/iPod/OSX are the greatest products out there, you aren't worth their time."
mac users tend to be that way because they've "found the light" so to speak. They see how superior the mac is and they take pride in the fact they've made a life-changing decision. Some people do take their pride too far and don't accept that some people prefer windows, but as a switcher, and a techie myself, I don't see why ANYONE would still prefer windows, geek or not. I guess some people just like to suffer.
"Holy crap Quicken needs some compitition!!!" iBank, Cha-ching, Moneydance, just to name a few (all superior to quicken in my humble opinion).
"$99 for .mac service? Espically when this thing voluenteered that as my email address so that i waisted $18."
I LOVE .mac, though it could be a lot better. I use backup every day and the iDisk is great. iWeb publishing has helped my friends and family stay in touch with me while I'm busy with grad-school. I'm much happier giving my money to apple than to say, norton. Oh and I got a 5-user family pack off ebay for only $60. Me and 4 friends split the cost 5 ways. You do the math. You can find .mac cheap if you just look. As for the $18 part, you totally lost me there...
"iChat AV, great program AWESOME features. Most useless! seeing as.. well since i have no up-to-date Mac friends.. noone has a .mac chat account."
ichat does not require a .mac account. You are confused here. iChat runs simply on the AIM network and is fully compatible with your current AIM login. For people that don't yet have an AIM account, apple will let you create a .mac AIM account for free. You call it useless, but today I just video chatted with a friend from sanfranciso that I haven't seen in ages. She just got a macbook and seeing her again, alone, made my macbook purchase worthwhile! I love the features of the upcoming iChat, such as theater and the backdrops. Give this time and everyone will have it, it just needs to catch on (just like the iPod and myspace needed time before they went mainstream). I would hardly call iChat useless... As for not having any up-to-date mac friends, just wait my friend... just wait ;) (look at apple's stock and increasing market share, or just walk into your local coffee shop and just COUNT the ratio of macs to PCs. I think you'll be surprised by how much "fruit" you'll see hehe).
Sorry for the novel-long post, but I think just a change in perspective and some optimism is all you need. Your problems all have solutions, but not if you aren't willing to at least look for them. And don't go back to the geniuses at your store if they aren't helping, just call applecare!! They've NEVER let me down!
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