Analysis: Adobe CS3 may not work with Leopard

"Well, in the version I heard, Steve was furious with Avid, and bought FC with the intention to develop it into a pro-level app with better pricing. Taking down Premiere was only the prelude. But who knows, I wasn't in the room when Steve decided to buy FC..."

Avid didn't drop Mac support for ANYTHING until Symphony (and that was really more because the product was built-off of the Nitris hardware that was developed by another company that Avid acquired - SD support was fine for Symphony, but the hardware required for HD was PC based -- plus Media Composer can now do uncompressed HD anyway making Symphony's advantage over regular MC more about marketing at this point), so what exactly are you talking about? Adobe dropped Premiere for Mac support after version 6 (which was terrible), but Avid didn't even try to enter the prosumer market until Avid XPress DV came out like 5 years ago. I totally agree that the whole point of Xpress DV was to compete with FCP/S, but I never heard anything about Apple trying to screw over Avid - and I've been hardcore into NLE stuff since 1999. Media Composer, the non-turnkey/SGi workstation program Avid has been selling for almost 20 years, didn't even get Windows 2000 support until 2001 -- it was 2003 before you could run it on Windows XP. Yes, it's $5K (though the education discount is ridiculous, $300 last time I upgraded, which was a few hundred less than what Apple charged me last month for FCS) - but they sell more bundled licenses (usually for far less than $5K a license, more in the $1500K range, slightly more than FCS, but not insane) than individual sales. Avid sells different packages - they sell workstations (which used to be customized SGi outfits for $30,000 or so) customized for a certain purpose and they sell software like MC, and the lower-end MC, Avid Xpress DV and DV Pro Studio.

Apple certainly put a damper on Xpress DV sales and made it harder for Avid to conquer the Mac prosumer market -- but they aren't competitors in a way that Adobe and Apple are -- they are totally different companies. Avid had nothing to do with the development of KeyGrip (Final Cut before it was Final Cut) -- it was originally a project that the Premiere developer created after he left Adobe (some bitchfight over something), then it was picked up by Macromedia, and also partially financed by some other company. But because part of the software was owned by Microsoft (I can't remember all the details but a significant part of the code had to be re-written to avoid royalties/copyright issues), the second company bailed and it was unreleased, while Macromedia tried to re-write the code and then Macromedia sold off their non-web design apps and Apple snapped it up so no one else would grab it. Adobe was the big name in prosumer before Final Cut -- not Avid, Avid wasn't even looking in that direction (which yes, did hurt them years later when they tried to enter that market -- but Avid is still primarily about pros - their acquisition of Pinnacle notwithstanding).

I agree that Adobe was taking a risk poking the monster with a stick -- but the example from the past you want to use is not Avid - but Adobe. Adobe's decision to screw over Premiere 5 Mac users (and Windows users too - who were forced to use $1200 firewire cards before Adobe would introduce OHCI support, but we won't go there) by only offering the free 5.1c upgrade that was compatible with the G3 DV cards (or the iMac DV or any other Mac with an Apple Firewire card) to people who had purchased 5.1 (everyone else had to pay $500 or whatever for the upgrade IF you had 5.0 -- if you had 4.5, no upgrade was available - my high school had fairly new 5.0 licenses on a bunch of G3s with DV cards and Adobe wouldn't budge -- we ended up calling Apple who gave us a great deal on the first version of FCP and Adobe ended up losing the Premeire contract for the entire county, the largest in our state and at the time, the 10th largest in the nation) just helped FCP/S overtake the Mac market basically from the word go. Once they left Mac after Premeire 6 (which no one bought because it was the same price as Final Cut Pro and Adobe pissed off so many people) and Premiere Pro ended up being sucktastic for Windows, they even started to lose out on the PC NLE market -- and that's a market that Adobe can't ever lose if they want to remain soluble. Ironically, the awesomeness of Final Cut was part of the reason Premiere for Windows was so chastised (that and the aforementioned OHCI customer piss-off game -- it's been almost 7 years and I'm still pissed about that) and has all but disappeared as a viable Windows editing option.

I think Apple's approch to OS X lately has been piss poor compared to their other projects. Having said that, some Mac users could also say that about Adobe over the last few years. The time has come for a all out imaging war, Apple should rewrite Apperture or Gimp and make it a direct Photoshop rival and see what happens, It's a big ask and most probably won't happen, but it would be intresting to see if they did do it. Winner takes all.

Geez. Well, from the talk in this thread there's *no way* I'll be an early adopter of 10.5. I'll wait for at least 10.5.1, since the amount of time between GM and the first post-launch release should be extensive enough to catch all the little things that could throw a huge wrench in my daily workflow.

Over the years, I have waited a long time for each Mac-compatible version of Adobe software, so I'm not surprised. They're uncooperative and uncaring about their Mac users. All I can say to Adobe is that the people who tyruly support their software and promote it to other users are in the Mac community. Get your act together and stop with the Borg worship. I test software for my employer every day of the week, and if you aren't doing the same with each build of Leopard, you are completely arrogant putzes!

"Apple bought the program after Macromedia's funding fell through, at the time more to prevent a competitor from releasing it than anything else -- so it was a lot less an attempt to beat down Avid than it was to fuck over Adobe"

Well, in the version I heard, Steve was furious with Avid, and bought FC with the intention to develop it into a pro-level app with better pricing. Taking down Premiere was only the prelude. But who knows, I wasn't in the room when Steve decided to buy FC...

"Sure, schools and smaller productions are using FCP in constantly increasing numbers, but so much of that is because it is just flat out cheaper and the performance is similar -- Avid is still Avid."

You're missing the point. No one makes money on high end niche pro products. You can only sell a few $100,000 editing solutions per year. But you can sell hundreds of thousands of $1,000 applications. Guess where the money is... Avid knew where they had to move -- the "prosumer market" has long been the largest and fastest growing segment in video. Well, FCP came along and absolutely DEMOLISHED Avid's hopes for that market.

So Steve was 100% successful in screwing over Avid on the desktop. Avid was so thoroughly defeated that they had to go searching for new markets -- audio, 3D, etc. They realized they didn't own video anymore.

Adobe charge too much for CS3 - I don't know anyone that's bothered to upgrade from CS2 anyway.

I dunno. I am liking Apple less and less these days. I know that there are a ton of fan-boys still out there (just read these comments), but the fact is Apple is becoming more closed and more anal every day. In many ways Apple has more "monopolies" going all the time and it always positioning itself for more.

It is just a matter of time before Apple fully becomes a Microsoft. As a Apple hardware/software user, I really don't feel Apple love. Rather I often feel that I am shelling out more and more money.

I say, go Adobe! Hey, port your apps to Linux, maybe I can then leave the Jobs/Gates giants all together.

This is analysis? A CEO says he needs to test products on a final version of the OS and suddenly it's WWIII between Apple and Adobe. Truth is, Leopard is and continues to be very buggy. But then Apple apologists think the sun shines out of Steve's ass.

Of course, Adobe isn't springing for an ADC membership, that COSTS money! They're barely making it as it is charging $3,000 for Photoshop (with extra features) just so their code wheel on the building can keep a turning. Besides, they've already upgraded their software and the next 5 year cycle is not coming up yet. Software is a great business except for the annoying users who keep insisting on compatibility and upgrades! But as the DMV of software companies, we are following the path emblazened by Quark. Make them wait and make sure it costs at least $399 (per seat).

"Has anyone forgotten what happened when Avid dropped support for the Mac? Jobs went ballistic, bought Final Cut from Macromedia, proceeded to absolutely obliterate Avid's grip on the market, and pave the way for ProApps. Adobe should remember this well, because in the process, they lost millions in video product sales on the Mac, and even had to discontinue Premiere on the Mac for years."

Yeah -- I don't disagree with everything you are saying, but a LOT of this is bullshit. First of all, the guy that developed Premiere (for Adobe), headed up the original Final Cut team, which was then for a software company (KeyGrip I think) that was purchased by Macromedia -- Apple bought the program after Macromedia's funding fell through, at the time more to prevent a competitor from releasing it than anything else -- so it was a lot less an attempt to beat down Avid than it was to fuck over Adobe - a company that has ALWAYS had a love/hate relationship with Apple. FCP wasn't designed as an Avid competitor - it was designed as a Premiere competitor -- it just ended up being good enough to go against the non-turnkey Avid solutions. As for Avid, they still have a pretty big advantage in any professional environment - not just for video, but for sound (buying ProTools locked that up -- I'll use FCP over Avid, but if I had to pick Logic or ProTools for editing (not creation - I don't create music, I just edit sound), ProTools wins, hands down). Sure, schools and smaller productions are using FCP in constantly increasing numbers, but so much of that is because it is just flat out cheaper and the performance is similar -- Avid is still Avid. I use both, I prefer FCP, but Avid is still the industry standard and that hasn't changed just because Symphony dropped OS X support. That might eventually change, but it's a long way off - and Apple would need to spin off an entirely separate company if they wanted to seriously erode Avid's professional market dominance (not to mention start either offering or supporting pro specific hardware for industry professionals - yeah, you can edit a lower to mid-budget studio pic primarily in FCS, but you can't run a TV station without some serious, serious tweaking/growing pains and legacy support).

As for Adobe, yeah, they need Apple and Apple needs Adobe - and that's why the two companies hate each other. I would love a legitimate CS3 rival - by any company - anyone -- but I've yet to see anything that even comes close. And love or hate Adobe (and I lean more on the side of hate, although I grudgingly accept that they are my bitch), for a LOT of people, their business and livelihood are dependent on Adobe's products even more than Apple hardware.

The fact that Adobe was so public about not having the final build (and five weeks from launch, they should at least have something close to gold) and not being able to guarantee compatibility says that Leopard will probably be delayed. I'm fine with that - if the delayed product is worth it (just as I would have been fine with Vista if it hadn't been so crappy despite all the delays) - but if they are going to delay again, they better make sure they get it right - otherwise all the people bitching about how iPod/iPhone/iTunes has taken away the focus from making good software/hardware will have a point.

This is unrelated, but I personally think Apple should spin-off either their portable entertainment division (everything involving iTunes or any iPod device) or spin-off the software/OS division. If you can't do an OS upgrade and launch a new product at the same time (and that's fine - lots of companies can't) - make a new company so that each project can have its own resources.