Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Gaming, Software, Odds and ends
Carmack fighting with Jobs about gaming on the Mac
Despite what Jobs told us at WWDC earlier this year, Apple isn't as committed to gaming as they'd want us to think. GamedailyBIZ has an interview up with id software's John Carmack (makers of Quake and the new Rage, set to premiere simultaneously on Mac and PC), and he says that he and Jobs have had arguments about gaming on the Mac, including a "...fairly heated argument" at WWDC.Carmack says he would love to develop on the Mac-- and who wouldn't-- but that the problem is that Apple just doesn't care. Carmack mentions the iPhone as a platform he'd love to see some great games on as well, but points to the iPod as a place where Apple failed gaming-- they made developers work on an emulator, and there were many "horrible decisions."
As Carmack says, you can't exactly fault Apple for their choices. From a business perspective, they are going gangbusters. But with Jobs' feelings on this coming to light, we must look past specific developers, and Apple themselves-- why are Jobs and his company so opposed to solid game development on their platform?
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Jason said 4:08PM on 11-20-2007
Gabe Newell said pretty much the same thing [on bringing Orange Box to the Mac]
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Rubbinz said 4:13PM on 11-20-2007
Apple not caring about games is pretty much a Captain Obvious story.
It really doesn't matter anymore. With platforms like the Xbox 360 and PS3 being as powerful as they are, PC and Mac gaming just doesn't matter. With a game console you just pop in the game disc and play, no need to worry about whether or not your system is up to spec or if you have the right drivers to run it.
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DMXell said 4:16PM on 11-20-2007
My guess would be that Jobs thinks that gaming is a niche market. It's roughly 1% on the PC side, it'd be even less on the Mac side. The problem with this logic, if it is truly what Jobs thinks, is that it's based on a short-term bases. It'd only include current users. But imagine if the games available grew. I can almost guarantee that the PC argument that "Macs don't have games" would be abolished and that many PC users who game would switch due to the reliability of the Mac OS.
It's still a niche market, but hardcore gamers are always willing to spend a lot of money on a good machine and thus a 24" iMac or a Mac Pro would be the highest desired Mac computers for gamers.
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Rob Eust said 4:17PM on 11-20-2007
They're opposed to gaming because gaming basically goes hand-in-hand with customizable rigs. Mac users with an iMac will see better graphics on the Windows side from the people who shell out $Texas for the latest and greatest video cards and will wonder why they can't, too.
I'm not that educated on the matter, but I imagine Mac Pros can be upgraded fairly easily, within the same line of video cards, but how many consumers fit the bill of wanting to game, having a Mac Pro, and are willing to upgrade it on their own?
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adrian said 4:21PM on 11-20-2007
I don't like the idea of gaming on the Mac. Not happy about that?, Then buy a console.
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Sam said 4:27PM on 11-20-2007
I drink as much Apple Kool-Aid as anyone, but their anti-gaming stance is fucking asinine. It really doesn't take a lot of bending over backward to do it. Macs can do fine as gaming rigs, if they are marketed as such, which they are not, which is dumb. And I'm sure someone can find a gaming use for Core Animation.
I mean, seriously, how much work would Apple really have to do embrace gamers?
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akatsuki said 4:28PM on 11-20-2007
Funny this came up, as I was just thinking about whether or not Apple should maybe make a play for gaming with the next AppleTV. As much as I would hope so (hell, I even wrote something on my blog (overcritical.net) about it), I doubt they will. It would be a huge commitment.
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MrShabby said 4:35PM on 11-20-2007
Please Steve create a gaming division within Apple. There needs to be that link in the chain between Apple and developers. That is one thing I do applaud MS for doing well. Giving that supporting hand to games developers.
I finally managed to pursued my girlfriend into buying the new 20" iMac but she really wanted to play the Sims 2 on it. So I bought her the UB version and assured her it would run flawlessly. Now she has the Mac- but playing the Sims doesn't run very well at all. According to Aspyr there are MAJOR issues running on the new iMacs graphics cards. I feel like an idiot.
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jus10 said 4:35PM on 11-20-2007
@5
Or a PC. Or Dual boot your anemic Mac. I'm doing the latter. However, having to boot into Linux to play video games is rather odd. Then again, on my eee which runs Linux natively I run dosemu to play some games. Its all a matter of perspective.
Thinking on it, your statement makes little sense. I'm unhappy because YOU don't want gaming on the Mac so I'd buy a console? Maybe I'd just lobby Apple to make machines with some decent hardware and support game developers. Perhaps my next computer hardware purchase will not be Apple. Actually since it was an eee instead of an iPhone, I guess I already voted with my wallet.
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Tim Kimberl said 4:36PM on 11-20-2007
I think steve is still ticked off over the whole Halo/Bungie thing ;)
Least we have bootcamp now, so we could always just boot into that to play games.
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Se7en said 4:36PM on 11-20-2007
"so opposed to strong game development" ? Maybe its just not a priority, which isn't the same thing. The one thing Apple does do well is focus on their core competencies, and gaming has never been one of them. That doesn't mean they are actively opposed to it.
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moo083 said 4:36PM on 11-20-2007
I agree this is asinine on Apple's part. And I also agree it could have something to do with the ability to swap out parts. To expand on what Rob said, I think that Apple needs to come out with a midrange desktop that has something like a Core 2 Duo chip and a nice graphics card (or the ability to upgrade to a nice graphics card). The problem is that the Mac Pro is a nice machine but games run mostly off the graphics card. This means that the Xeon processors in the Mac Pro are WAY overkill. Apple could release a gaming rig for maybe $1200 to $1500 that is easy to upgrade, and ideally, they would support upgrading everything, though I guess I would understand the lack of a motherboard upgrade. In a Mac Pro, you could probably upgrade everything from the processor to the RAM (of course) to the hard drives to the optical drive. So why not release a cheaper version of the Mac Pro. It goes along with the idea that every time you buy an iMac you have to buy a new monitor. This would avoid that.
Anyways, this is a real serious issue because I don't think games on the Mac will ever succeed because there is no ability to customize your rig and that is really important to most gamers. If Apple changes this, they could change people's minds.
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kusmi said 4:41PM on 11-20-2007
Heavy 3D games are anyway on the sinking side... what counts are creative new game ideas. Not only games for hard-core gamers, but for normal people, like my girlfriend. For those games it's not necessary to have extra-high-end graphics-cards and those should work on the mac with no problems.
Especially with the great new development environment/API (e.g. Core Animation). I would not be surprised, if we get some pretty nice games just because of CoreAnimation...
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Dale said 5:07PM on 11-20-2007
@Rubbinz: You've obviously not used a modern games console then... many games across the PSP, Wii, PS3 and Xbox 360 insist on performing system updates before you can run them; and the console firmware update is pretty ubiquitous now.
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Sietepestes said 5:19PM on 11-20-2007
There is something I don't understant, and if someone could please point it out go ahead.
Both Gabe Newell and John Carmack have expressed that Apple doesn't give them any loving. What is it they want that Apple doesnt give? And what it is they need so much from Apple so that they can develope games on it or better yet port their games to this platform.
You see when you got companies like, well Blizzard, who have an extensive background on creating games on the Mac, and they have done it for each of their IP they have (diablo, Starcraft, Warcraft and World of Warcraft), each and everytime they release a game for PC you can also install it in a mac.
So why is it Blizzard can, but John "Daddy" Carmack can't... Why is it other lesser companies like Amoeba, the people that make EVE Online and again Blizzard can, and Gabe Newell can't?
John Carmack and Gabe Newell are about the tip of the cream developerwise in the Gaming industry, each with over 20 years of experience... What is it they need that they don't get to build their games or build new IP of games in the Mac.
Frankly, I think its bullshit. If you tell me Jimbo Squat can't... but this is Carmack... the dude could build a game on a freaking penny and it still would be the best game out there.
Further more, I think building games for mac should be as easy as coding a game for a console, because most macs have hardware that is not interchangable. I mean even if they adhere to the locked "hardware" Apple uses....
There really shouldn't be any excuse about them (carmack, valve, etc) not making a decent game on the mac when other have done that and more.
Someone care to answer to this?
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Zach said 5:36PM on 11-20-2007
To DMxel, I _highly_ doubt that Jobs considers gaming in general a "niche". My basis for such a suggestion is that in 2005, the industry as a whole brought in $7 billion. Apple brought in $24 billion. I contend you are wrong with your suggestion that Jobs (or anyone except you) would consider sales that equal 34% of Apple's sales a "niche".
Generally something has to be small to be a niche. Obviously Apple is continuing to gain popularity and as that accelerates they're slice of that video gaming industry pie means quite a bit of money.
I don't know Jobs and I won't attempt to suggest I know why Apple isn't doing more to chase the gaming dollar. I do see Apple pushing the "it just works" mentality and focusing on gaming may jeopardize that internally. They also have a major competitor that has spent over a decade focusing on gaming with their operating system.
I think it is pretty simple to see how focusing resources into a market that is well established and mature may cause other parts of the product to suffer. Do I like that? Not really. I can just reboot my MBP into XP and play whatever I want. At least Apple got that part right (else I wouldn't own one).
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pjg said 5:50PM on 11-20-2007
Many productive people have absolutely no interest in games, including myself. If I start to play, I just feel like there is something better I can do with my time. Therefore, it is not even enjoyable.
However, if they can ever develop gaming where you can plug into your mind, and fool your brain like you are really "there", than I imagine many people would become addicted, and maybe even check out permanently (Brainstorm) (Matrix)
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Rubbinz said 6:05PM on 11-20-2007
@Dale,
I'm well versed in modern consoles, I have the big 3: Wii, PS3 and 360. My original post still holds, game updates on these consoles are fairly seamless. You start the game and your update is applied with a simple button push to confirm it. On the PC side I've been gaming since '89 and most of the time it's up to you to check for updates, it's up to you to download them, and it's up to you to actually apply them. Now, many modern games will include some kind of auto checker that will call home to check, it's too much hassle. Not to mention all the BS anti-pirating DRM they bundle onto the game disc these days. Then we get to the fun part of new games. It's getting to the point where with each new release you also have to upgrade your system just to play the damned thing. For me, I'm tired of the whole thing. It's a waste of time and money.
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JT said 6:06PM on 11-20-2007
@DMXell
So Apple should go after a fraction of the 1% of the PC market that games (your numbers) to get some of those PC gamers to switch?
And that's mostly Mac Pros since the upgradeability of iMac just isn't sufficient for most PC gamers.
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Hombre Phaty said 6:10PM on 11-20-2007
Last year, the video game industry grossed $15 billion. That was more than the previous year and less than projections for this year. Each year, the video game industry grows. Apple wants no part of the video game industry.
The movie industry, however, did $7 billion last year and has been shrinking, in ticket sales, the last several years. Apple knocks themselves out for this market; they make a large number of products for the movie market, they advertise heavily for it, they spend a great deal of money and resources courting the movie industry.
...it's like Opposite Day taken much too far. It's like a cruel practical joke...
"We don't want anything to do with the giant, growing industry. We want to spend all our efforts on the smaller, shrinking industry."
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