Filed under: Software
Entourage 2008 and Time Machine don't get along
Office 2008 for the Mac is a huge release for Microsoft, and a big deal for most Mac users. I've been anxiously waiting for the newest version of Office for one thing only: Entourage 2008. For my money Entourage is the best mail client on OS X (feel free to call me names in the comments), but Entourage 2004 certainly shows its age.Entourage 2008 looks great, but not all is sunshine and daisies. Entourage 2008 stores most everything it uses in one big database file. There are many reasons to do this, but are also a few drawbacks. One of the biggest Leopard related drawbacks is the fact that Time Machine does file level, not bit level, backups. Every time a file is changed it is included in Time Machine's backups. Every time Entourage gets an email, you add a contact or event, or label something Entourage's database file is changed. Add to this the propensity for that database file to grow rather large and you can see the problem here. Microsoft suggests you simply exclude Entourage's DB from Time Machine's backups, but I hope they come up with a better solution in the near future.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Jer said 8:12PM on 12-13-2007
>> There are many reasons to do this
Care to enumerate them for us?
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MasterLeep said 8:16PM on 12-13-2007
Well, you might be interested in proprietary lockin by making it impossible or nearly so for your users to access their data without your application.
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Mark said 8:17PM on 12-13-2007
And this differs from Entourage 2004 how?
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Christina Warren said 8:21PM on 12-13-2007
I haven't played around with this in the beta, but one potential work around that I could see would be if Entourage has its own backup utility built in, similar to a free Microsoft released/sponsored plugin for Outlook 2003/7. For years in Windows, I had my PST file (the Windows version of the database) set to back-up to an alternate location every Monday morning and every Friday evening - but I just set it to overwrite the existing file. If Microsoft (or someone else) could write a script to do the same thing in Entourage, and the destination could be set to the Time Machine drive or partition, that might be as good of a solution as any.
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Tim said 8:23PM on 12-13-2007
One more reason to skip M$ products altogether. iWork is not only cheaper than Office but a whole lot better than Word/Excel/Powerpoint. And the quirks of Mail aren't any worse than those in Entourage.
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nexus said 9:03PM on 12-13-2007
yeah...except for the fact that mail.app isn't even in the same class as outlook/entourage
those of us who work in a corp. environment will understand.
Alan said 9:19AM on 12-14-2007
Nexus, that was true in Tiger, but it's not true in Leopard. There is no major Exchange+Outlook feature that's not supported by Leopard Mail with a backend CalDAV server. Leopard mail does resource scheduling, busy/free time analysis for meeting scheduling, etc.
Stephen Lang said 2:02PM on 12-14-2007
Just because Time Machine doesn't deal with large file backups very well, doesn't mean MS or some other 3rd party is at fault.
You could have a huge Filemaker database file and run into the same problem.
JayTee said 7:27PM on 12-14-2007
--There is no major Exchange+Outlook feature that's not supported by Leopard Mail with a backend CalDAV server.
This ups the number of people I know running on a CalDAV server to one - again, corporate users would understand.
Cameron Williams said 8:35PM on 12-13-2007
Microsoft wants money from Mac users for releasing crippled copies of their software. They release products that are neither Mac-like, nor compatible. The problem is, there systems are so complicated, no other company is going to step up with compatible alternatives. This just feels like another abuse of Microsoft's monopoly power.
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NutMac said 8:35PM on 12-13-2007
Tim, Aperture also suffers from the same bug. Ergo, this is more of Time Machine issue rather than Microsoft's.
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Michael said 9:00PM on 12-13-2007
ummmm.... how is that? the Aperture database is nothing more then a folder that has all the various images as individual files. So no.. its not like Aperture.
The problem that exists between aperture and time machine is related to co-running processes. Basicaly, you shouldnt be doing things in aperture when time machine is doing its thing.
I have not had any other problems... but the aperture database is NOT a binary database!
amoeba said 9:26PM on 12-13-2007
gawd, i can't believe they are still doing the DB thing. 2 years ago we switched the entire company (28 ppl) over to Mail/iCal because that DB made backups a nightmare. after a week or so of whine/b*tch, no one missed it at all. here's hoping Office becomes completely irrelevant soon(er).
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cbisquit said 9:59PM on 12-13-2007
An email archive is a perfect example of a place where a database is superior to a directory of flat files.
*all emails have the same set of data fields
*the need for search means that there is a great amount to be gained by lots of cross indexing and metadata
*and the sheer number of emails kept by many corporate users means that maintenance of an email directory would cause all kinds of headaches with redundant disk access
Until our filesystems are more database-like themselves it will always make sense to keep emails in a structured db.
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Brian said 1:08AM on 12-14-2007
Um, yes, that's it, dude. Single database means there is lots to be gained by lots of cross indexing and metadata... That's exactly why searching in Entourage is so much faster than mail.app... Are you on crack????
Single database is the most asinine thing I have ever heard of. "Sorry, one thing in your 6GB database was a problem, and the whole database got corrupted." ARE YOU KIDDING ME???
In our company, we made it a free market. "Switch away from Entourage if you want; stay if you want. We will support both under Exchange." Know what? Everyone one has ditched Entourage. Without exception. Search. Quick Look. GTD and MailTags integration. Everyone happy.
Karl-Franz Marquez said 1:31AM on 12-14-2007
"Until our filesystems are more database-like themselves it will always make sense to keep emails in a structured db."
Ugh! Yeah, until your entire database gets corrupted due to one errant bit and then, instead of maybe losing one file, you lose the entire database and are unable to read a single email.
This, btw: is the main reason WinFS was dropped. Try as they might, MS could not get data integrity guaranteed. This is why Apple didn't go for a database file system and instead created the Spotlight index. If the index file gets corrupted, you simply dump it and regenerate it, but you don't lose your actual files.
This is a serious problem for MS, every time one of their mondo-sized databases goes kaput, so does your system— can you say "Registry corruption"?
"An email archive is a perfect example of a place where a database is superior to a directory of flat files."
Please! The "proper" solution is to put your email cross-indexing data in a database, but keep all your emails in a standard file system.
cbisquit said 10:00PM on 12-13-2007
...oh and I forgot to mention- why would you want to back up your primary email database anyway? Most people who use entourage do so for exchange integration, so it doesn't matter if you lose your local copies of the live mail file and any locally archived files won't be accessed on a regular basis.
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Michael Rose said 10:30PM on 12-13-2007
cbis -- unfortunately, in 2004, a lot gets stored locally (categories, to-dos, notes, etc.) that won't sync back. The local Entourage MUD file is needed.
Craig said 10:03PM on 12-13-2007
I use both mail and Entourage, at the same time, one for work, the other because it works.
I fail to understand how anyone can like entourage. It's clunky, never does what you want it to. It's sooooooo slow. Searching is painful. That's a second complaint, it's both slow and painful to search. The headers show you all sorts of irrelevent information, damn thing sucks at HTML, you ask it to download pictures and it refuses to. Makes you do it manually every time, even though you've set it up to do it automatically. It has to render an email before it will allow you to click on another, then you have to wait another ten minutes for it to render the new one.
In short entourage is a POS.
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LuminousNerd said 10:09PM on 12-13-2007
"....I hope they come up with a better solution in the near future."
Umm, yeah...so you do realize you're talking about Microsoft here? There'll be no better solution...Microsoft doesn't "do" solutions. They break things.
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