Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Hardware, Bad Apple, MacBook
FireWire feedback from readers and Apple
Yesterday's discussion post about the exclusion of FireWire from the newest MacBooks generated a tremendous amount of reader feedback and discussion. We decided to take an unscientific straw Twitter poll which generated a large response, underscoring that for the Mac community, FireWire is a big deal.
The responses to the blog post were largely in support of my thesis: that losing FireWire from the MacBook is a big deal and a potential (or actual) deal-breaker for many, many users. This was to be expected, as people who are upset about FireWire's disappearance are more likely to respond to an article sharing that sentiment. On Twitter, however, when we just asked, "Is the lack of FireWire on the new unibody MacBook a deal-breaker for you, yes or no?" the data was less skewed.
A majority of the Twitter users that responded to our poll said "no, it is not a deal-breaker." Many commented that the loss is disappointing, but ultimately it won't prevent them from buying a new MacBook. Still, more than one third of the responses were "yes, this is a deal-breaker." Many users are considering putting off upgrading altogether; others expressed discomfort with being forced to buy a MacBook Pro (either the new units, or the now heavily-discounted older units).
A note to concerned future MacBook Pro users: you can get an inexpensive cable with FW400 on one end and FW800 on the other -- no adapter needed, just a new cord for your camera or audio device. Be warned, however, that the presence of a FW400 device in the chain will drop the speed of any FW800 devices to the older standard.
Reader David sent Steve Jobs (or sjobs@apple.com) an e-mail, expressing his disappointment by the lack of FireWire on new MacBooks. The response (which David forwarded and we verified had the correct mail-header information), is pretty interesting...
"Actually, all the new HD camcorders of the past few years use USB 2."
You know, I really don't want to get too pedantic about that statement, but that simply is not true. It is true that the industry standard for consumer HD video has emerged in the form of AVCHD. Because that format is either stored on a hard disk or on flash media (and in its original incarnation, burned directly to a DVD), it's accessible via USB 2.0. It is also true that AVCHD is still not completely supported for native editing by most popular software packages. In fact, Adobe Premeire Pro didn't even support the format until CS4, which was released yesterday. iMovie '08, Final Cut Express 4 and Final Cut Studio can edit AVCHD footage, but it has to be converted to the Apple Intermediate Codec on the fly (or batch converted with the VoltaicHD tool, which adds the bonus of allowing PPC machines to work with the format).
Furthermore, although it has lagged behind AVCHD in popularity, HDV cameras are still sold, and because HDV uses MiniDV tapes, it is a popular choice for consumers who either bought HD cameras early, or still want to be able to play back their MiniDV footage. XDCAM EX and DVCPRO HD have supplanted HDV in the professional market, but many of the better prosumer cameras are HDV, not AVCHD. Even with the USB 2 port found on most DVCPRO HD cams, you still can't capture footage from tape with it; that's a job for FireWire.
But fine, for the sake of argument, let's assume that every HD consumer camera sold in the last year was AVCHD (I won't even acknowledge "few years" because iMovie didn't even support AVCHD until August of 2007). That still leaves a lot of users, a lot of consumers with MiniDV cameras. Obviously older technology cannot and should not be supported forever, but we are hardly at the tipping point for mass replacement of every MiniDV camera, right?
David sent an additional response, raising the question of cost of the new USB 2.0 cameras. The Apple response this time, "The new HD camcorders start around $500." So I suppose Apple's position is that we are at that tipping point. Fair enough, it still leaves lots of us with a decision to make: upgrade the camera and computer, buy the more expensive computer or just hold off on upgrading altogether.
I don't think I would be so confused if this wasn't the interface that Apple has touted and encouraged for so many years. It would also be less upsetting if users were at least given an alternative. Most PC laptops come with Express Card slots as a standard feature. Then, you could just buy a FireWire card. No problem. The same goes for the iMac, whenever they eventually phase out FireWire. On a PC, you can add a PCI-Express card. On the iMac, you're out of luck.
All I can say, is that if you are a Mac user who has no intention on buying a Mac Pro or a MacBook Pro, I would seriously reconsider buying any FireWire devices in the future. It is clear that as far as the consumer lineup is concerned, FireWire 400 or 800 is on the way out, and chances are the equipment won't work with your next hardware upgrade.
Furthermore, although it has lagged behind AVCHD in popularity, HDV cameras are still sold, and because HDV uses MiniDV tapes, it is a popular choice for consumers who either bought HD cameras early, or still want to be able to play back their MiniDV footage. XDCAM EX and DVCPRO HD have supplanted HDV in the professional market, but many of the better prosumer cameras are HDV, not AVCHD. Even with the USB 2 port found on most DVCPRO HD cams, you still can't capture footage from tape with it; that's a job for FireWire.
But fine, for the sake of argument, let's assume that every HD consumer camera sold in the last year was AVCHD (I won't even acknowledge "few years" because iMovie didn't even support AVCHD until August of 2007). That still leaves a lot of users, a lot of consumers with MiniDV cameras. Obviously older technology cannot and should not be supported forever, but we are hardly at the tipping point for mass replacement of every MiniDV camera, right?
David sent an additional response, raising the question of cost of the new USB 2.0 cameras. The Apple response this time, "The new HD camcorders start around $500." So I suppose Apple's position is that we are at that tipping point. Fair enough, it still leaves lots of us with a decision to make: upgrade the camera and computer, buy the more expensive computer or just hold off on upgrading altogether.
I don't think I would be so confused if this wasn't the interface that Apple has touted and encouraged for so many years. It would also be less upsetting if users were at least given an alternative. Most PC laptops come with Express Card slots as a standard feature. Then, you could just buy a FireWire card. No problem. The same goes for the iMac, whenever they eventually phase out FireWire. On a PC, you can add a PCI-Express card. On the iMac, you're out of luck.
All I can say, is that if you are a Mac user who has no intention on buying a Mac Pro or a MacBook Pro, I would seriously reconsider buying any FireWire devices in the future. It is clear that as far as the consumer lineup is concerned, FireWire 400 or 800 is on the way out, and chances are the equipment won't work with your next hardware upgrade.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 10)
Joseph said 7:11PM on 10-16-2008
no mention of Target Disk Mode or a good alternative that is not hardware based?
Reply
Christina Warren said 7:25PM on 10-16-2008
Unfortunately, there really isn't a good alternative. The good news is it is even easier to remove the hard drive from the new MacBooks than it was to remove them from other older models (and significantly easier for MacBook Pros), so for tech benches or users who are good at diagnostics, you can have an enclosure or SATA to USB connector handy to replace a drive and load the problem drive as a secondary device.
It's an extra step, but as someone who has done that process on a PC hundreds of times, the recovery process will still be easier on a Mac and the hardware maneuvering will be minimal.
It isn't ideal, but who knows, maybe a new form of TDM using USB 2.0 (or 3.0) will appear.
shadnerson said 7:32PM on 10-16-2008
For the Macbook Air I believe they developed an ethernet and wireless version of this. Check Tech Support Docs. I think it is in there
Michael Rose said 8:49PM on 10-16-2008
Shad - that's for Migration Assistant. TDM, while it is helpful when migrating, is used for much more.
Jim O'Hagan said 11:08PM on 10-16-2008
As a person who manages over 300 macbooks in a school, target disk mode is vital to do quick and easy backups on machines that sometimes will not boot, or to diag those that are hard to boot. I loved to joke with my friends who use XP just how easy it was to create a quick backup of my machine and made them wish that XP had just such a feature.
Am I missing something or is Target Disk mode just totally gone?
Mark said 5:11AM on 10-17-2008
The alternative is a bootable USB drive.
dan said 11:15AM on 10-17-2008
TDM over USB2 is not likely since USB devices can be either client or host, unlike FW devices which act as both simultaneously.
I get the positioning of FW as a differentiating feature of consumer/pro products (likewise with ExpressCard). Problem is Apple no longer makes a compact "pro" portable (ie 12" PowerBook). A MBP with 13" screen and FW would fit this niche.
While we're on the topic, why the balls would Apple position the new 24" display as an $800 accessory for new portables. It is, according the spec page, ONLY compatible with the new portables, not old portables, not MacPro. HUH? Sure the magsafe port is a cute feature in a display but I refuse to believe they can't make this display work with conventional DVI/USB machines. I (and others) fully expect Apple to release an appropriate adapter eventually, but for now I'm left scratching my head.
Jeff said 7:21PM on 10-16-2008
FW is a deal breaker for me. Absolutely. I own:
-FireWire 16 channel input. Cost something like $500
-Several FW enclosures with 2.5" drives since FW can power them with one cable.
-I use my FW port to pull digital video off a cable box now and again. (this isn't a deal breaker item but it's a nice option to have)
-I pull video off my friend's FW video camera sometimes and drop it into iDVD for him. (he's not technically literate enough to do it himself)
I can understand dropping it off the Air but removing it from the MacBook is just flat out stupid when $500 PCs have it. I won't pay $800 more for a FW port MBP.
Apple lost a customer Tuesday so they could save what? $1 per machine?
My next Apple laptop will be an OSX86 system.
Reply
michael k said 7:58PM on 10-16-2008
just so you can have the strongest possible argument next time, all intel machines are x86
but i completely agree. it seems apple can't add any silver lining without doing something completely asinine. (fw/displayport for this outing)
Bender Bending Rodriguez said 8:19PM on 10-16-2008
@ Michael K,
By "OSX86" I'm pretty sure Jeff means he's going to buy a non-Mac laptop and install OS X on, which is often referred to as OSx86 and referred to as a Hackintosh.
dandaman said 8:24PM on 10-16-2008
I own nothing that I can't connect to my MacBook by USB. But the new iMovie '08 is good for picture slideshows, which is all I use it for. It is absolutely horrible for video. And, it doesn't support USB. While I don't to too much video editing (or I'd have a pro in the first place) this is a bit of a deal breaker. I'm thinking a new 15" for my next computer, and use it with my 23" cinema display if I get the right adapters for display and not FW as well. Maybe one of those 24" - they look nice.
Charles Lee said 6:32AM on 10-17-2008
Good luck finding a Windows laptop with 6 pin firewire ports. From what you described, you definitely belong in the "pro" user group, so it's time for you to move up to a MBP I guess.
People like you complaining about the lack of Firewire in Apple's consumer line is like people who complain about the lack of redundant power supply in Dell's $500 boxes.
TVGenius said 11:13AM on 10-17-2008
Yeah, there's a lot of other uses for FireWire, not just video, and there are a LOT of people I know who enjoy editing on their MacBooks, and capture from a MiniDV camera.
I work in TV, and have had quite a few people come to me for advice after buying a hard drive-based camcorder and not being able to figure out how to get it on their computer, and have found that the workflow is horrendous on some, requiring 3rd-party conversion before editing apps can use it.
This was a very poor decision by Apple.
Davis Beutler said 12:07AM on 10-18-2008
Here Here! I may just go an buy an Efix now.
Thank christ i bought one of the macbooks in march! Apple, you have just lost a macbook customer, unless a macbook with at least Firewire 800 appears on a future macbook, i will not be buying one, and your not fishing out my money for a MBP.
I work in digital media, and every single camera i have used has used has a firewire 400 port on it. Stuff USB,
you have made a stupid mistake apple, and its going to bite you back
Blake said 7:09PM on 10-18-2008
Yup. Its a deal breaker for me as well. I sent the following to both steve@ and sjobs@:
Hello Steve and or whoever reads this for you,
I've been really looking forward to getting a new MacBook for a while now. I had been holding off on it since everyone was telling me that the new ones should be out any time now. I had heard rumors about better graphics and was really excited by the announcement of the NVidea chipsets in them. I've been a loyal Mac user for a couple of decades now. My dad had a Lisa and one of the first Macs. Before that we had a series of Apple IIs. Since I was born, my house has always had an Apple computer in it.
I can't really afford a MacBook Pro. I can't really afford a MacBook. I was going to save up and get one anyway. Now I don't really want one. I have a Firewire Audio interface that I bought a couple years back. I use it and Logic 7 on my G4. I was going to upgrade to the MacBook and Logic 8/Studio. It seems that Apple had been guiding me toward this type of settup with pages like this: http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/apogee/
I remember how excited I was when Apogee and Apple were teaming up to bring the Duet out. Seems like a great pairing with a notebook computer. Like a MacBook for instance. So I bought a Duet. I also have a larger Firewire interface from DigiDesign. I use them for a hobby. I was looking forward to having a notebook that I could use anywhere to record and work on composition or even perform live shows. I could now either spend a lot more money on a MacBook Pro, or I could switch to a Windows laptop with a different audio suite. I'm not really happy with either of those choices. If at all possible, please bring back firewire on the MacBook line. Sooner would be better than later.
Thanks for your time,
Blake
Seattle, WA
Michael Quinn said 7:25PM on 10-16-2008
I might be deluded, but I'm sure I read somewhere last week (when all the spy photos were going around), that there was an ethernet to firewire adaptor?
Reply
Christina Warren said 7:28PM on 10-16-2008
Well, you can use FireWire as a network device (which is why you can connect two FireWire devices together and then transfer stuff back and forth, like DV cameras or decks for instance), and IIRC there were FireWire to ethernet adaptors that would let you access traditional ethernet stuff from a FireWire connection, but I don't think there is anything that goes the opposite way.
Christina Warren said 7:30PM on 10-16-2008
I stand corrected...
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=205852397&SearchEngine=DealTime&SearchTerm=205852397&Type=PE&Category=Comp&Gad=0&dcaid=15891
Not sure if that works with Mac or not. At $22, it is certainly a cheaper alternative than the $120 FireWire to USB adaptor...
Christina Warren said 7:56PM on 10-16-2008
Nevermind. Apparently this is just a port tester.
MacTipper said 8:04PM on 10-16-2008
I'm pretty sure that the product mentioned is compatible with Mac.
Compatibility sheet:
http://www.trendnet.com/support/?support=compatibility_list&supportid=4
Product page:
http://trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=125_TC-NTUF&cat=50
If I understand right, it's product ID is TC-NTUF.